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tian_oc (JC Palz)

10 September 2008 15:53:57

hippo
Kemudian kata "kamu" dalam Yoh 10:25-26 memang pada kedua ayat itu secara khusus merujuk kepada orang Yahudi yang tidak mempercayai Yesus. Tetapi pada saat yang sama Yesus telah memberikan definisi untuk mereka yang bukan domba yaitu mereka yang tidak percaya kepada Yesus. Ini pun masih dapat dikatakan eksegesis.

Joh 10:25 Yesus menjawab mereka: "Aku telah mengatakannya kepada kamu, tetapi kamu tidak percaya; pekerjaan-pekerjaan yang Kulakukan dalam nama Bapa-Ku, itulah yang memberikan kesaksian tentang Aku,
Joh 10:26 tetapi kamu tidak percaya, karena kamu tidak termasuk domba-domba-Ku.


Mungkin yang Yohanes 10:16 bisa dibaca ini commentary dari seorang pakar Alkitab , nanti saya baca lagi dari Baker Exegetical Commentary ada atau tidak .

And I have other sheep.Though some refer this indiscriminately to all, both Jews and Gentiles, who were not yet disciples of Christ, yet I have no doubt that he had in his eye the calling of the Gentiles. For he gives the appellation foldto the assemblage of the ancient people, by which they were separated from the other nations of the world, and united into one body as the heritage of God. The Jews had been adopted by God in such a manner, that he surrounded them with certain enclosures, which consisted of rites and ceremonies, that they might not be confounded with unbelievers, though the door of thefold was the gracious covenant of eternal life confirmed in Christ. For this reason he calls those sheep which had not the same mark, but belonged to a different class, other sheepIn short, the meaning is, that the pastoral office of Christ is not confined within the limits of Judea, but is far more extensive.
Augustine’s observation on this passage is undoubtedly true, that, as there are many wolves within the Church, so there are many sheep withoutBut this is not applicable, in every respect, to the present passage, which relates to the outward aspect of the Church, because the Gentiles, who had been strangers for a time, were afterwards invited into the kingdom of God, along with the Jews. Yet I acknowledge that Augustine’s statement applies in this respect, that Christ gives the name of sheepto unbelievers, who in themselves were the farthest possible from being entitled to be called sheepAnd not only does he point out, by this term, what they will be, but rather refers this to the secret election of God, because we are already God’s sheep, before we are aware that He is our shepherd. In like manner, it is elsewhere said that we were enemies,when he loved us, (Rom_5:10Wink and for this reason Paul also says that we were known by God,before we knew him, (Gal_4:9.)
Them also I must bring.He means that the election of God will be secure, so that nothing of all that he wishes to be saved shall perish. (290) For the secret purpose of God, by which men were ordained to life, is at length manifested in his own time by the calling, — the effectual calling, when he regenerates by his Spirit, to be his sons, those who formerly were begotten of flesh and blood.
But it may be asked, How were the Gentiles brought to be associated with the Jews? For the Jews were not under the necessity of rejecting the covenant which God made with their fathers, in order to become Christ’s disciples; and the Gentiles, on the other hand, were not under the necessity of submitting to the yoke of the Law, that, being ingrafted in Christ, they might be associated with the Jews. Here we must attend to the distinction between the substance of the covenant and the outward appendages. For the Gentiles could not assent to the faith of Christ in any other way than by embracing that everlasting covenant on which the salvation of the world was founded. In this manner were fulfilled the predictions,
Strangers shall speak the language of Canaan,
(Isa_19:18.)
Again,
Ten men of the Gentiles shall take hold of the cloak of one Jew, and say,
We will go with you,
(Zec_8:23.)
Again,
Many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
(Isa_2:4; Mic_4:2.)
Abraham was also called
a father of many nations, (Gen_17:5; Rom_4:17,) because they shall come from the East and from the West, who shall sit down with him in the kingdom of God,
(Mat_8:11.)
As to ceremonies, they are the middle wall of partition, which, Paul informs us, hath been thrown down, (Eph_2:14.) Thus, we have been associated with the Jews in the unity of the faith, as to the substance; and the ceremonies were abolished, that there might be nothing to prevent the Jews from stretching out their hand to us.
And there shall be one fold(291) and one shepherdThat is, that all the children of God may be gathered and united (292) into one body; as we acknowledge that there is one holy universal Church, (293) and there must be one body with one head.
There is one God, says Paul, one faith, one baptism.
Therefore we ought to be one, as we are called into one hope,
(Eph_4:4.)
Now though this flock appears to be divided into different folds,yet they are kept within enclosures which are common to all believers who are scattered throughout the whole world; because the same word is preached to all, they use the same sacraments, they have the same order of prayer, and every thing that belongs to the profession of faith.
And they shall hear my voice.We must observe the way in which the flock of God is gathered. It is, when all have one shepherd, and when his voice alone(294) is heardThese words mean that, when the Church submits to Christ alone, and obeys his commands, and hears his voiceand his doctrine, (295) then only is it in a state of good order

Latest update by tian_oc on 10 September 2008 15:53:57

moe (JC Fever)

10 September 2008 15:55:25

hippo
Eksegesis itu mencakup 4 hal :

> historical (using the form, word choices, editing work, historical context, main themes, and so on, to find what it meant back when it was written or when it happened),

>canonical (treating the Bible as an whole document designed to be what a specific community lives by),

>symbolic/allegorical (figuring out what each character and event represents),

>rational (thinking it through using logic and deductive technique).

Jadi kalau saya mengartikan "yang bukan dari kandang ini" sebagai non-Yahudi masih dapat disebut sebagai eksegesis.


Ini sdh lari ke Eisegesis dan hermeneunetics

Latest update by moe on 10 September 2008 15:55:25

moe (JC Fever)

10 September 2008 15:56:15

tian_oc
hippo
Kemudian kata "kamu" dalam Yoh 10:25-26 memang pada kedua ayat itu secara khusus merujuk kepada orang Yahudi yang tidak mempercayai Yesus. Tetapi pada saat yang sama Yesus telah memberikan definisi untuk mereka yang bukan domba yaitu mereka yang tidak percaya kepada Yesus. Ini pun masih dapat dikatakan eksegesis.

Joh 10:25 Yesus menjawab mereka: "Aku telah mengatakannya kepada kamu, tetapi kamu tidak percaya; pekerjaan-pekerjaan yang Kulakukan dalam nama Bapa-Ku, itulah yang memberikan kesaksian tentang Aku,
Joh 10:26 tetapi kamu tidak percaya, karena kamu tidak termasuk domba-domba-Ku.


Mungkin yang Yohanes 10:16 bisa dibaca ini commentary dari seorang pakar Alkitab , nanti saya baca lagi dari Baker Exegetical Commentary ada atau tidak .

And I have other sheep.Though some refer this indiscriminately to all, both Jews and Gentiles, who were not yet disciples of Christ, yet I have no doubt that he had in his eye the calling of the Gentiles. For he gives the appellation foldto the assemblage of the ancient people, by which they were separated from the other nations of the world, and united into one body as the heritage of God. The Jews had been adopted by God in such a manner, that he surrounded them with certain enclosures, which consisted of rites and ceremonies, that they might not be confounded with unbelievers, though the door of thefold was the gracious covenant of eternal life confirmed in Christ. For this reason he calls those sheep which had not the same mark, but belonged to a different class, other sheepIn short, the meaning is, that the pastoral office of Christ is not confined within the limits of Judea, but is far more extensive.
Augustine’s observation on this passage is undoubtedly true, that, as there are many wolves within the Church, so there are many sheep withoutBut this is not applicable, in every respect, to the present passage, which relates to the outward aspect of the Church, because the Gentiles, who had been strangers for a time, were afterwards invited into the kingdom of God, along with the Jews. Yet I acknowledge that Augustine’s statement applies in this respect, that Christ gives the name of sheepto unbelievers, who in themselves were the farthest possible from being entitled to be called sheepAnd not only does he point out, by this term, what they will be, but rather refers this to the secret election of God, because we are already God’s sheep, before we are aware that He is our shepherd. In like manner, it is elsewhere said that we were enemies,when he loved us, (Rom_5:10Wink and for this reason Paul also says that we were known by God,before we knew him, (Gal_4:9.)
Them also I must bring.He means that the election of God will be secure, so that nothing of all that he wishes to be saved shall perish. (290) For the secret purpose of God, by which men were ordained to life, is at length manifested in his own time by the calling, — the effectual calling, when he regenerates by his Spirit, to be his sons, those who formerly were begotten of flesh and blood.
But it may be asked, How were the Gentiles brought to be associated with the Jews? For the Jews were not under the necessity of rejecting the covenant which God made with their fathers, in order to become Christ’s disciples; and the Gentiles, on the other hand, were not under the necessity of submitting to the yoke of the Law, that, being ingrafted in Christ, they might be associated with the Jews. Here we must attend to the distinction between the substance of the covenant and the outward appendages. For the Gentiles could not assent to the faith of Christ in any other way than by embracing that everlasting covenant on which the salvation of the world was founded. In this manner were fulfilled the predictions,
Strangers shall speak the language of Canaan,
(Isa_19:18.)
Again,
Ten men of the Gentiles shall take hold of the cloak of one Jew, and say,
We will go with you,
(Zec_8:23.)
Again,
Many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
(Isa_2:4; Mic_4:2.)
Abraham was also called
a father of many nations, (Gen_17:5; Rom_4:17,) because they shall come from the East and from the West, who shall sit down with him in the kingdom of God,
(Mat_8:11.)
As to ceremonies, they are the middle wall of partition, which, Paul informs us, hath been thrown down, (Eph_2:14.) Thus, we have been associated with the Jews in the unity of the faith, as to the substance; and the ceremonies were abolished, that there might be nothing to prevent the Jews from stretching out their hand to us.
And there shall be one fold(291) and one shepherdThat is, that all the children of God may be gathered and united (292) into one body; as we acknowledge that there is one holy universal Church, (293) and there must be one body with one head.
There is one God, says Paul, one faith, one baptism.
Therefore we ought to be one, as we are called into one hope,
(Eph_4:4.)
Now though this flock appears to be divided into different folds,yet they are kept within enclosures which are common to all believers who are scattered throughout the whole world; because the same word is preached to all, they use the same sacraments, they have the same order of prayer, and every thing that belongs to the profession of faith.
And they shall hear my voice.We must observe the way in which the flock of God is gathered. It is, when all have one shepherd, and when his voice alone(294) is heardThese words mean that, when the Church submits to Christ alone, and obeys his commands, and hears his voiceand his doctrine, (295) then only is it in a state of good order

itu namanya Eisegsis

Latest update by moe on 10 September 2008 15:56:15

hippo (JC Palz)

10 September 2008 15:56:54

moe
Exegesis

Joh 10:16 Ada lagi pada-Ku domba-domba lain, yang bukan dari kandang ini; domba-domba itu harus Kutuntun juga dan mereka akan mendengarkan suara-Ku dan mereka akan menjadi satu kawanan dengan satu gembala.

Tulisan ini pada abad pertama

Kisah kejadian terjadi pada paruh pertama abad pertama

Tunjukkan bukti secara forensik bahwa anda termasuk disana.

Apakah anda sdh ada disana waktu itu?

Apakah kebangsaan anda sdh muncul disana waktu itu?

Bro, bukankah exegesis dan eisegesis merupakan metode dari hermeneutika ? Kemudian latar belakang sejarah hanya merupakan salah satu tools dari exegesis. Seperti yang telah saya posting ada 4 tools yang bisa digunakan dalam mengexegesis ayat.

Latest update by hippo on 10 September 2008 15:56:54

cute_princess (JC Lover)

10 September 2008 15:59:00

ga mudeng deh ini bahasa apaan Embarassed Embarassed

Latest update by cute_princess on 10 September 2008 15:59:00

moe (JC Fever)

10 September 2008 16:02:42

Exegesis lebih fokus pada the given text as far as i know, Eisegesis memasukkan idea penafsir, Hermeneunetics mencakup lebih luas dari Exegesis.

Hermeunetics akan lebih tepat sasaran bila kita melihat secara keseluruhan isi Alkitab.

Latest update by moe on 10 September 2008 16:02:42

moe (JC Fever)

10 September 2008 16:07:09


Wikipedia: exegesis

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') involves an extensive and critical interpretation of an authoritative text, especially of a holy scripture, such as of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, the Talmud, the Midrash, the Qur'an, etc. Exegesis also is used to describe the elucidation of philosophical and legal texts.

One may encounter the terms exegesis and hermeneutics used interchangeably; however, there remains a distinction. An exegesis is the interpretation and understanding of a text on the basis of the text itself. A hermeneutic is a practical application of a certain method or theory of interpretation, often revolving around the contemporary relevance of the text in question.

http://www.answers.com/topic/exegese


Eisegesis (from the Greek εἰσηγεῖσθαι; 'to lead in') is the process of interpretation of an existing text in such a way as to introduce one's own ideas. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. An individual who practices eisegesis is known as an eisegete, as someone who practices exegesis is known as an exegete. The term eisegete is often used in a mildly derogatory fashion.

http://www.answers.com/topic/eisegesis

Latest update by moe on 10 September 2008 16:07:09

[T]ige[r] (Newbie)

10 September 2008 16:09:25

Firman itu saling melengkapi jadi miliki pikiran Kristus mintalah pengertian dan hikmat kepada BapaMu disurga,dengan senang hati Bapa akan mengabulkan asal anda menaruh harapan pada kehendakNya saja.

Anggaplah kita bukan Yahudi secara jasmani tetapi secara rohani kita adalah Anak-Anak Terang yaitu Bangsa yang terpilih untuk menerima keselamatan [Ingat bahwasanya keselamatan itu adalah Anugrah bukan hasil usaha kita sendiri ini adalah pemberian dari Allah]


Tetapi kamulah bangsa yang terpilih, imamat yang rajani, bangsa yang kudus, umat kepunyaan Allah sendiri, supaya kamu memberitakan perbuatan-perbuatan yang besar dari Dia, yang telah memanggil kamu keluar dari kegelapan kepada terang-Nya yang ajaib 1 Petrus 2:9



Jangan seorangpun menganggap engkau rendah karena engkau muda. Jadilah teladan bagi orang-orang percaya, dalam perkataanmu, dalam tingkah lakumu, dalam kasihmu, dalam kesetiaanmu dan dalam kesucianmu. 1 Tim 4:12

Latest update by [T]ige[r] on 10 September 2008 16:09:25

hippo (JC Palz)

10 September 2008 16:11:30

Sebentar ya, nanti saya buka-buka buku heremeneutika di rumah. Untuk pastinya mengenai hermeneutika, eksegesis, dan eisegesis.

Biar kita memiliki satu pemahaman yang sama untuk istilah-istilah itu. Sementara di pause dulu ya diskusinya.

Latest update by hippo on 10 September 2008 16:11:30

tian_oc (JC Palz)

10 September 2008 16:13:39

Mungkin ini bisa membantu exegesis Yohanes 10:16


Köstenberger, A. J. (2004). John. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (306). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Academic.

Yohanes 10:14-18 :

The present verse continues the contrast between the shepherd and the hireling. John 10:14–15 reiterates but expands the saying in 10:11 by noting that Jesus’ sacrificial death will institute a reciprocal relationship between believers and himself (cf. 10:3b–5; see R. Brown 1966: 396).41 This relationship, in turn, will be patterned after Jesus’ relationship with the Father.42 Jesus’ relationship with his followers (“know”) is portrayed as an intimate, trusting relationship in which Jesus, the good shepherd, cares deeply for those in his charge. This relationship is patterned after God’s relationship with OT Israel.43
“And I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also” (cf. 11:52; 17:20).44 In light of OT expectations of the incorporation of the Gentiles among God’s people, the “other sheep that are not from this sheep pen” probably are Gentiles (see esp. Isa. 56: 8 ).45 The “sheep pen” (αὐλή, aulē [cf. 10:1]) presumably is “the whole of historic Israel” (Ridderbos 1997: 363). The present passage clearly indicates that Jesus envisioned a full-fledged Gentile mission subsequent to his death on the cross.46 Though this mission is to be carried out through his followers, the pronoun “I” makes clear that Jesus will still be involved from his exalted position with the Father.47 Together with his “own” (10:14–15), the “others” describe the full extent of Jesus’ mission, both present and future (Ridderbos 1997: 362–63).
“There will be ‘one flock, one shepherd’ ” (an allusion to Ezek. 34:23; 37:24). The notion of one flock being led by one shepherd as a metaphor for God’s providential care for his united people is firmly rooted in OT prophetic literature48 and continued in later Jewish writings.49 Yet whereas the OT envisions primarily the gathering of the dispersed sheep of Israel, the present passage refers to the bringing together of Jews and Gentiles into one messianic community (cf. Eph. 2:11–22; 4:3–6; see Lindars 1972: 363). Hinted at in certain later OT prophetic passages (e.g., Isa. 56:6–8; Ezek. 37:15–28; Mic. 2:12), the full revelation of this truth awaited the NT era.50 The theme of unity will be further developed in John 17 (Carson 1991: 38Cool.51
John 10:17–18 continues and further explicates the thought of 10:15 (Ridderbos 1997: 365; R. Brown 1966: 399). There is no need to suppose that Jesus gained the Father’s approval by sacrificing his life. Rather, his sacrifice is in obedience to the Father’s command (Ridderbos 1997: 365; cf. Carson 1991: 388; Barrett 1978: 377; Beasley-Murray 1999: 171). The repeated reference to Jesus’ sacrifice in 10:11–18 makes this the focal point of the characterization of the “good shepherd.” The conjunction ἵνα (hina, in order that) in 10:17b probably conveys purpose rather than mere result (Carson 1991: 388; Morris 1995: 456 n. 50; contra Bultmann 1971: 384; Ridderbos 1997: 365).
“No one takes it away from me” may be a reference to past attempts at taking Jesus’ life (5:18; 7:25; 8:59; see additional note) or to his future death and resurrection, or both.52 “I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again” bears a striking resemblance to Pilate’s words in 19:10.53 The statement is in keeping with the evangelist’s consistent effort to portray Jesus being in charge throughout the events surrounding the crucifixion. It also highlights Jesus’ power over life and death. Though more frequently it is God the Father who is credited with raising Jesus from the dead, the NT also teaches that Jesus himself “rose” (active or middle voice [e.g., Matt. 27:63]; see Morris 1995: 456–57 n. 53; cf. Beasley-Murray 1999: 172).
The reference to “this command I received” invokes covenantal language, relating Jesus’ relationship with his disciples to God’s relationship with OT Israel (Köstenberger 1998b: 162 n. 83, citing Pryor 1992a). This is the first of several references to “command” in the following chapters, whether to commands of the Father to the Son (10:18; 12:49–50; 14:31; 15:10) or of the Son to his followers (13:34; 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12, 14, 17).

Jangan tanya sama saya lagi ya Very Happy

Baca dulu dan renungkan.

Tuhan Yesus memberkati kita . Amen Very Happy

Latest update by tian_oc on 10 September 2008 16:13:39